If not otherwise indicated the citations are from Bietenholz 2008 (Cosmic Rays and the Search for a Lorentz Invariance Violation)

- The composition of cosmic rays even at our time is not entirely clear: ”[…], but many aspects of the energy dependent composition are controversial” and the identification is not easy at all, and in practice the criteria are not always consistent”. Also ultra high energy cosmic rays are rare events: ”Note that the flux above 10^12 eV is around 10 primary particles per minute and m^², but above 10^18.5 eV it drops to O(1) particle/(km² year) […], so the search for UHECR takes patience”. The reason for construction of colliders is the imprecise configuration in observing natural cosmic rays. Only limited insight into the physics of cosmic rays is possible up to now - experiments for further clarification are currently prepared!

- The boost (the momentum / the velocity after transformation) of the products in a cosmic collision might be higher in the rest frame of the earth than the minimum momentum of the collider products (whatever heavy products). This results in other cross sections of these products with the matter of earth (or the atmosphere or moon) and other subsequent reactions due to the different energies. Not only are the products important but also their momentum when further reactions have to be considered. I do not cite here the literature because this correlation is canon in particle physics.

- The conditions in the collider (collision in the vacuum near to a solid) are different from the environment in the atmosphere (collision in gas) or on the moon (collision in a solid). Respective implications (reactions, life times, …) have to be analyzed in detail.

- To be able to compare the reactions a Lorentz transformation has to be applied: In the LHC two protons with equal velocities shall collide head on in the lab - in the cosmic case an extremely fast proton is assumed to meet a resting proton (relative to the earth). Up to now no violation of this transformation (LIV) is known and precise laboratory experiments for small energies (gamma at 10^5) are available. However, at extremely high energies (10^17 eV of LHC after transformation or more) experimental evidence is rare (Auger, HiRes, neutrinos) and neither fully exact nor unambiguous: ”This observation [AGASA] disagrees, however, with the data of the HiRes (High Resolution Flys Eye) observatory” . Lorentz invariance violation in this context is discussed in the literature: ”On the other hand, the sizable number of super-GZK cosmic rays asks for an explanation and keeps the door open for speculations” and ”This is a very active field of research with exciting open questions. We may expect enlightening new data in the near future. They could lead to new insight in outstanding issues like LIV or to new puzzles and perhaps to evidence for new physics”. More than 100 physical parameters subjected to the transformation are discussed: ”Kostelecky et al. have identified more than 100 LIV parameters in this way, including CPT breaking terms”. Not all are checked by the cutoff seen in Auger but could play a role in LHC experiments.

- Known physics might change drastically at energy densities making micro black holes possible as academically discussed in the meantime in higher dimensional space [Plaga 2009 http://arxiv.org/abs/0808.1415 ]. W. Bietenholz: ”This Gedankenexperiment suggests that points should indeed be washed out over a range of O(LPlanck ). If several directions are involved, as in relation (3.14), this is practically equivalent to non-commutativity. […] Thus we have the case of an ”active ”LIV”” Within this context - possible micro black hole production in colliders and the discussed effects at the Planck length - the comparison of the LHC collisions with cosmic ray events is additionally extremely questionable.

- The argumentation presented by Dar et al. 1999 (Will Relativistic Ion colliders…) commenting on symmetric head ons for the case of strangelets has to be inspected very carefully by experts and analyzed deeply extending the case to possible dangerous scenarios in general.

Concluding these arguments against operation and the calculations and considerations of even possibly dangerous scenarios of other academic colleagues are absolutely sufficient to enforce an independent, careful, public revision of the experiment and its discussed dangers before new experiments of any kind! The academic opinion clearly is not unambiguous as it would have to be the case amongst others for admissible operation.

The review by W. Bietenholz is written to give a summary of current research for cosmic rays and LIV - it is not intended to assess the LHC. My items against the argumention of CERN can be based on this review to a large extent.

2010-02-13 | achtphasen | 08:57:57 | Email | 23 comments




 

Comment from: ralfkannenberg [Visitor]
Hello Mr.Pretzell,

I am not quite sure what you are calculating - are you really calculating that 2 particles of cosmic ray hit each other or is this only a misunderstanding of mine ?

Best regards, Ralf Kannenberg
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-09 | 09:58
Comment from: Kondensat [Visitor]
The calculation is totally wrong. You have to calculate with the effective proton cross section times the cosmic ray flux. look here: http://forum.astronomie.de/phpapps/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/531795/Re_Erduntergang_durch_Schwarze#Post531795
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-09 | 10:15
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... the calculation concerning the head on probabilities has just been doubted by an astrophysicist - I will countercheck it and correct it as soon as possible. Please everyone experienced grasp the idea and do this easy calculation here for us. My professional background (biophysics) is limited - this astrophysical topic should be discussed also by professionals.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 10:49
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
Hello Kondensat,

thanks for your comment - the estimation is very rough including also only one direction in space (which matters not so much because the other 2 dimensions just add). The intergalactic flux is also different from the intragalactic flux. Take it as first approximation.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 11:05
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
Hello Mr. Kannenberg, yes you are right - I am roughly calculating that two cosmic ray particles hit each other (nearly head on) with energies above 10^12 eV each! Thanks for your comments - we can do a scholastic questio disputatio here... I am at the end of my dissertation so it is useful either way!
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 11:23
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... but the questio has to be a "Wiki-questio" - you know the schedule of CERN. Regards
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 11:26
Comment from: ralfkannenberg [Visitor]
"My professional background (biophysics) is limited "

"Take it as first approximation"


Hello Mr.Pretzell,

how can you talk from "key arguments" under such circumstances ?

Furthermore it is still unclear whether you are using cosmic ray particles hitting each other.

I assume this should be clarified first to avoid misunderstanding.


Best regards, Ralf Kannenberg
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 11:59
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
Thank you for your comments:

I recognized that the calculation is not as simple as I thought. I have to recalculate and hope to find the solution by comparing with diffusion theory (mean free path)...

The key arguments against the comparison with cosmic rays however up to now have not been refuted by any of my colleagues - neither at Research Centre Juelich nor by the staff of CERN or anywhere else.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 14:21
Comment from: ralfkannenberg [Visitor]
"The key arguments against the comparison with cosmic rays however up to now have not been refuted by any of my colleagues - neither at Research Centre Juelich nor by the staff of CERN or anywhere else."

Hello Mr.Pretzell,

head on collision of cosmic ray particles hitting each other are not used in any safety report. The reason for that is their extremely seldom occurrence.

Thus this may be (and surely is) of academic interest, but there is no safety relevance calculating this as these events are not used anyway for safety assessments.


Best regards, Ralf Kannenberg
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 16:23
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... I will explain my argumentation. Though I thought I would have made a mistake my result was correct. My model - I developed this comparing with diffusion in the meantime - can be explained in the following way:

A cube of 1 m^3 is hit by 10 particles with energies > 10^12 eV per minute. From the other side it is the same. The particles produce a trace. The particles are inside the cube for 10^¯8 seconds only because they move with c. The probability that two traces are produced at the same time is about 100 * 10^-8/60 = ca. 10^-8. A trace has a volume of about 10^-28 m^3. The probability that the two traces cross is 10^-28 therefore. But this is not sufficient. Both particles have to be at the crossing point at the same time. This probabilty amounts to 10^-14 (diameter nucleus versus length of trace) * 10^-14 (for the other one). Now we want to go "head on" and divide by 100 (or thousand or tenthousand - not so important). We divide (this was an additional mistake) by 60 to get per second giving:

10^-28 * 10^-8 * 10^-14 * 10^-14 * 0.01
* 0.01 (ca. 1/60) = 10^-68 events per second

The realistic case can be treated accordingly giving

10^-40 * 10^-8 * 10^-20 * 10^-20 * 0.01
* 0.01 (ca. 1/60) = 10^-80 events per second

The result is similar. Comments are welcome...

PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 18:54
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... the needed precision of the head on (factor 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, more?) has to be commented by an expert!! What is achieved at CERN? The more is necessary the worse the experiment is comparable to our cosmos! In either way the experiment is unique as far as I can see...

Please pay attention mainly to the key arguments against the cosmic ray comparison... here I would like to hear experts as well!
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 23:04
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... I am verry sorry to be forced to present a kind of "freestyle" here - but the schedule of my colleagues is very tight and discussion is urgently needed!!

I trust in your wisdom and sharp eye!!;-)
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-10 | 23:20
Comment from: Rudolf Uebbing [Visitor]
Besonders merkwürdig an
der LHC-Diskussion ist die in der
Presse nachlesbare
Einlassung eines hohen CERN-Beamten,
der mitgeteilt hatte, dass nicht
von einem sehr kleinen Risiko, sondern
nur von einem Nullrisiko gesprochen
werden darf - dies als Sprachregelung
für einige CERN-Bedienstete! Eine derartige
Einstellung ist dazu geeignet, tiefergehende Untersuchungen, die
die Risikofrage weiter objektivieren und
quantifizieren könnten, zu behindern.
Für einen Wissenschaftsbetrieb muss diese Regelung als etwas ganz Aussergewöhnliches angesehen werden.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-11 | 11:27
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
There are indeed mistakes in this calculation, but the calculation linked to by Kondensat is also wrong. It is not possible just to multiply flux with cross section because the rays are coming from all directions. Only in the parallel case something like presented in the link would be allowed as far as I see. The author is also not interested in events per volume which I intend to calculate.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-13 | 00:35
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... at the moment very important parts of my calculations are missing - I do not know, why it is not posted. My final result is that collisions are found in the universe but hardly near to moon like objects.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-14 | 15:02
Comment from: achtphasen [Member] Email
Alf, missing parts are found, sorry! pls. verify if now all parts of your calculation are present and at the right place. this comment and yours before will be made invisible as soon as you will have given me affirmation, that now again, your blog-entry is as you want it to be. sorry for this inconveniance. Marc
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-14 | 15:41
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... please note I consider energies > 10^12 eV - LHC is using 10^13 eV !! These are more seldom - I will give information later.... work is in progress and I appeal urgently to experts to participate! Why is the head on not discussed in the safety paper of CERN!? Correct this instantly and show your results!! Move....!!!!
PermalinkPermalink 2010-02-14 | 19:14
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... Bitte an alle deutschsprachigen: Überlegt, was die Aussage von Herrn Uebbing bedeuten könnte und warum ich hier als "Verschlagener" gezwungen bin, diese Rechnungen - wie gesagt teilweise falsch und als freestyle - durchzuführen. So etwas darf gar nicht geschehen, sondern muss von Spezialisten erledigt werden. Ein entsprechendes paper zum symmetrischen head on von de Rujula, Dar et al. "Will relativistic ..." behandelt nur einen Spezialfall (strangelets, nuclear cross section) und ist viel zu wenig genau für ein genaues assessment der Maschine. Herr Kannenberg, sehen Sie sich bitte dieses paper an. Experten, rechnet den symmetrischen Fall endlich genau durch, und zwar schnell.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-03-21 | 23:29
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... another important paper apart from de Rujula, Dar is the one by Hut and Reese about vacuum instability. It is however only a sketch - nevertheless with the correct formula Flux squared times crossection times speed of light. I divided by c - this is wrong. The paper neglects finite widths of resonances as far as I can see and is a rough sketch as mentioned.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-03-28 | 03:35
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... sorry, we took out my calculations presented here as "ansätze". The correct formula can be found as pointed out in the paper by Hut/Reese and using integrals in the publication By de Rujula/Heinz/Dar. I mentioned the missing details - and there might be more:

- careful discussion of reasonable cross sections at respective energies showing respective widths

- careful discussion of reasonable astronomical objects which give clear evidence

- careful discussion of the cosmic volume appropriate to allow the comparison with collider events

- careful discussion of experimental and theoretical know-how concerning cosmic rays and underlying physics to justify the discussions mentioned before

Like I mentioned this is done in the de Rujula paper in a way it can serve us as "starting point". Now let's go on!
And stop the engine before we have results!
PermalinkPermalink 2010-04-28 | 15:32
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
... further inspection showed even the formula in the Hut/Rees paper and in the de Rujula/Dar/Heinz paper is not correct.

Not multiplying but dividing the equation by c is adequate, because if the velocity is higher the particle will leave the cubic meter faster, the probability for the particles to meet inside the cube will decrease according to this model.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-07-15 | 22:14
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
I have to correct myself:

in the Hut/Rees paper and in the de Rujula/Dar/Heinz paper densities are used and in this case it is o.k. to multiply with c.

But the comment from 28.4.2010 is still valid and I do not find in the above papers consideration of the small angle the particles are meeting. For a real head on the particles have to be on one line and the allowed angle is very small.
PermalinkPermalink 2010-07-18 | 19:08
Comment from: Alf Pretzell [Visitor]
Please be aware - for all interested

I shut down my domain and do not communicate via email

Please in case of interest place comments at the various sites if possible in layman understandable terms

I left the web at many places already concerning this bubbling topic - from my point of view counterarguments are numerous and sufficient

PermalinkPermalink 2011-02-26 | 02:50
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